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sundoll-arwhore
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No matter what your opinion is-abortions happen. You can't stop it. It is a fact of life.
Tuesday, October 5, 2004 2:28 AM
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burnsinat0r
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Alright, I accept and respectyour opinion. However, this is not everyones moral belief. And some people believe it is a persons own moral choice. And declaring when life starts is going to be impossible. But most people don't believe life starts at conception.
Tuesday, October 5, 2004 2:31 AM
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nathansym
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sundoll is right ... kinda
more a fact of death though.
it's similar to the war thing.
Moral relativism leads to lack of morals.
There has to be a line drawn.
[Edited by nathansym on 10/4/2004 4:43:24 PM. Reason for edit: .:.]
Tuesday, October 5, 2004 2:38 AM
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scuffmaster
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Amen Osteor, right on man!
Tuesday, October 5, 2004 2:45 AM
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AfroWanksta
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I don't like the idea of abortions, but don't beleive it's the government's place to regulate
No abortions before 12 weeks is probably the best compromise that will ever be reached
Tuesday, October 5, 2004 2:48 AM
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burnsinat0r
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And moral absolutism leads to oppression. Whats your point? That there is no grey area?
Tuesday, October 5, 2004 2:48 AM
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nathansym
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Saying something is wrong is your idea of moral absolutism?
Tuesday, October 5, 2004 2:52 AM
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burnsinat0r
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No, saying that your opinion is right and must be followed is. Im now suggesting that you are a strict absolutist. I was just giving the counter to your comment about relativism leading to lack of morals.
Tuesday, October 5, 2004 2:56 AM
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nathansym
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Your question "What's your point?" kinda threw me.
I thought it was pretty clear that my point was moral relativism leads to a lack of morals.
Tuesday, October 5, 2004 3:02 AM
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burnsinat0r
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I was using sarcasm to say that relativism does not strictly lead to negating morals. There is lot's of philosophy about this but it all boils down to acknowledging that other people have different morals but letting them do as they please as long as it does not interfere with anothers well being.
And yes I realize that you can include the unborn child as the person that it is affecting. That whole debate was kind of a tangent that leads back to itself. Abortion doesn't follow the "sane moralists" ideal of moral relativism to some because they consider that unborn child to be a person being affected by this choice. Although, some people don't consider that child to be alive, so it all boils down to subjective moral judgment.
My personal moral convictions consider a child to be alive after the first trimester when it is starting to develop. I do not consider an ebryo to be a living human being. Attaching a soulc to the conception is a matter of faith and the government is not supposed to be dealing with faith. If you want to look at abortion scientifically and legally you consider the unborn child to be living when it develops signs of life. Which start at the end of the first trimester.
Tuesday, October 5, 2004 4:18 AM
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Justferfun
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I understand fully that everyone has a different set of morals to guide themselves. Some murderers tend to believe what they do is moral, but again that affects someone else. However with teh fetus it is arguable as to weither or not is is in fact a "someone else" which is why the argument even exists. I also understand that illegalizing (is this a word?) abortions is not going to make abortions go away. While it may significantly decrease the number of abortions, it will not end them, and "back alley" abortion clinics will sprout up.
This is what I ask. Rather than argue as to weither or not Abortions are moral or immoral, rather than argue when life begins, rather than discuss legistation against the issue, let us simply try to decrease the number of abortions that happen nationwide. Limiting abortions to the first 12 weeks is one way. But I absolutely disgust people who speak lightly of the matter of abortion. Ashley Judd for example made abortions sound like nothing to be concerned about or give thought to. She actually said once that she wants to get an abortion "just because". I don't know how helpful "Planned Parenthood" is on the matter of actually planning parenthood ("aborting" a "fetus" is not a plan for parenthood, it's a plan to avoid parenthood.) but it would be nice if they stressed the options before going straight to abortion.
It all comes down to responsibility... If you're responsible enough to get pregnant (rapes excluded), you're responsible enough to care for a child (and give up your "youth" for it). People need to start taking responsibility for their actions (this doesn't only apply to pregnancy).
/incoherent rambling
Tuesday, October 5, 2004 4:35 AM
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burnsinat0r
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I agree with that. Abortions should not have to be a necessary thing. There are enough precautions out there that abortions shouldn't have to be a resort at all. But they aren't perfect and not everyone uses them obviously. Hell, a girl could get pregnant using a condom and birth control (very unlikely of course). I used to think rape was only a rare case when it came to abortions. Turns out it is a lot more prevalent than one would think.
And yes there should be limitations to abortion and it should be discouraged. But making it illegal in total is just stupid.
[Edited by burnsinat0r on 10/4/2004 6:56:23 PM. Reason for edit: I can't type]
Tuesday, October 5, 2004 4:53 AM
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Redebekadia
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I am pro-choice, and a Christian. I would never in a million years get an abortion and I dont think that anyone should. I believe in a womans right to chose, there are many more reasons to get an abortion besides rape, being stupid, or birth control methods failing. I think that a woman should be givin several alternatives to abortion, and that being a last resort. Some women dont realize that so many people want a new born baby, it only takes a little research. I think that no matter how heartless a woman is that getting an abortion is very heart wrenching on a woman.
as for the heroin clinics, you know that if they were legal they wouldnt have that "ooo its illegal" appeal to it and many people wouldnt do it, because it wouldnt seem as cool. Plus, it wouldnt be so big because lower end people wouldnt be making money off of it, and they wouldnt have an incentive to push the product. And, the government would be better able to control people who were on the drug, help them. I seriously think that if it were legal it wouldnt be that big of a thing because of the whole legal, uncool aspect.
Tuesday, October 5, 2004 5:30 AM
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tampacheercoach
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I just love when men have opinions on abortion, something they will never have to consider. I am prochoice and I agree, my body=my choice. Who the hell gives you the right to tell me what I can and cannot do with my body. What happens if we ban abortion, it wont end. Women will just keep doing it, and the conditions in which its done will deteriorate. I also just love people who say, " I will never do it, im so against it." I for one dont know what I would do if faced with that decision, and I wont know for sure until I have to make that choice for myself. Its easy for people to sit back and judge others, but what happens when they are faced with the same decision? I think a lot of people would change their minds.
Tuesday, October 5, 2004 8:47 AM
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nathansym
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Women should really be the only ones to have an opinion on the murder of a human being.
quote :
as for the heroin clinics, you know that if they were legal they wouldnt have that "ooo its illegal" appeal to it and many people wouldnt do it, because it wouldnt seem as cool. Plus, it wouldnt be so big because lower end people wouldnt be making money off of it, and they wouldnt have an incentive to push the product. And, the government would be better able to control people who were on the drug, help them. I seriously think that if it were legal it wouldnt be that big of a thing because of the whole legal, uncool aspect. |
ummmm ... since when did people do heroine because it's cool?
have you seen any pictures on this site of people shooting up heroine and bragging about it ... like pot?
but I guess that's why no one smokes cigarettes
[Edited by nathansym on 10/4/2004 11:00:51 PM. Reason for edit: .:.]
Tuesday, October 5, 2004 8:56 AM
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Justferfun
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quote :
I just love when men have opinions on abortion, something they will never have to consider. |
Yes, because men play no part at all in the creation of a child and therefore should remain mute unless the woman decides he should speak.
Shut your ignorant fucking mouth. Men have as much a voice in this matter as women.
Tuesday, October 5, 2004 9:04 AM
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tampacheercoach
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"Women should really be the only ones to have an opinion on the murder of a human being. "
I dont consider it murder, you do.We arent talking about a two year old that can survive without its mother, a 10 week old fetus cannot live outside of its mother, therefor in my opinion it is not a life. Its fine if men want to have an opinion, but I find it annoying when they try and shove it down my throat. Like I said, its very easy for you to sit there and tell me its wrong when its a decision you will never have to make.
Yes men help with the creation of life, I didnt say that. But men do not have to carry the fetus for nine months, or give birth to it. It is not endangering your life for me to have the child, so yes I think I get more say in it than you do.
[Edited by tampacheercoach on 10/4/2004 11:10:12 PM. Reason for edit: bleh]
Tuesday, October 5, 2004 9:06 AM
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Justferfun
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Show me a two year old that can survive on its own.
Tuesday, October 5, 2004 9:10 AM
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Justferfun
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quote :
Yes men help with the creation of life, I didnt say that. But men do not have to carry the fetus for nine months, or give birth to it. It is not endangering your life for me to have the child, so yes I think I get more say in it than you do. |
So you're saying that if the man wants the child and the woman doesn't, tough fucking luck. Fuck you, and fuck that idea. You're life is not endangered by being fucking pregnant. Equal rights bitches.
Tuesday, October 5, 2004 9:12 AM
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tampacheercoach
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Okay a two year old can survive without its mother, isnt that what I said? I didnt say it could survive on its own. A ten week old fetus on the other hand cannot survive without its mother.
"So you're saying that if the man wants the child and the woman doesn't, tough fucking luck"
Yea thats pretty much it.
"You're life is not endangered by being fucking pregnant. Equal rights bitches."
Oh im sorry doctor I didnt realize that I knew so little about reproduction. What the hell are you talking about! Have you ever heard of Pregnancy induced hypertension, or diabetes? How about women who have c-sections, that is a major surgery. Women can die from pregnancy or labor, so maybe you need to shut the fuck up!
[Edited by tampacheercoach on 10/4/2004 11:18:47 PM. Reason for edit: <0]
Tuesday, October 5, 2004 9:17 AM
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Justferfun
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quote :
Have you ever heard of Pregnancy induced hypertension, or diabetes? How about women who have c-sections, that is a major surgery. |
Not fatal. My mom had a c-section. Again, your life is not endangered by being pregnant in most occurances. On the rare fucking occassion that your life is in jeopardy, I'm sure the man will agree with you that an abortion is the right choice. But to ignore the man's opinion under every fucking circumstance is wrong.
Equal rights, except for when it comes to two people's child (it takes two to get pregnant, even with artificial pregnancy).
Tuesday, October 5, 2004 9:28 AM
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tampacheercoach
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"On the rare fucking occassion that your life is in jeopardy, I'm sure the man will agree with you that an abortion is the right choice"
See heres the thing, you cant always predict when your life will be in danger. Pregnacy induced hypertension or diabetes CAN be fatal and most of the time dont manifest until farther along in the pregnancy! Im glad your mom had a C-section, but just because she was okay doesnt mean everyone will be. It would be nice to sit down with the father and have a little chat but if I dont want to carry the child then I dont think the talk will accomplish much.
Pregnancy is not fifty fifty between the mother and father, it is one hundred percent the mothers responsibility. So why should the decision be fifty fifty, if the pregnancy is not?
[Edited by tampacheercoach on 10/4/2004 11:40:43 PM. Reason for edit: eh]
Tuesday, October 5, 2004 9:38 AM
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Justferfun
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quote :
Pregnancy is not fifty fifty between the mother and father, it is one hundred percent the mothers responsibility. So why should the decision be fifty fifty, if the pregnancy is not? |
Remember that quote when you complain about child support.
Last I checked, the father was at least somewhat responsible for the pregnancy of a woman. I don't know though, it's been awhile since I took that Sex ED class...
Tuesday, October 5, 2004 9:47 AM
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tampacheercoach
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Again thats not what I said, he may have helped create the situation but going through the pregnancy is completely the womans responsibility. Unless I forgot, men do not share in pregnancy. If you did then yes it would be equal, and would merit equal say in the decision. But until men get to carry the baby for half the time, then the pregnancy part is still my responsibility.
Tuesday, October 5, 2004 9:54 AM
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Justferfun
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responsibility. Abortion isn't being very responsible. You sexiest bitch.
Tuesday, October 5, 2004 9:58 AM
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tampacheercoach
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"responsibility. Abortion isn't being very responsible. You sexiest bitch. "
In my opinion having a child that I cannot afford to raise, and then relying on welfare and handouts is being irresponsible.
"Abortion isn't being very responsible"
But that is completely your opinion, asshole.
Tuesday, October 5, 2004 10:02 AM
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Justferfun
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quote :
"responsibility. Abortion isn't being very responsible. You sexiest bitch. "
In my opinion having a child that I cannot afford to raise, and then relying on welfare and handouts is being irresponsible. |
Then getting pregnant in general is irresponsible... Close your legs and get a job.
Tuesday, October 5, 2004 10:04 AM
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tampacheercoach
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Perhaps you should shut the fuck up.
Tuesday, October 5, 2004 10:09 AM
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Justferfun
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Tuesday, October 5, 2004 10:17 AM
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tampacheercoach
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Wow how intelligent, and im a sexist bitch huh.
Tuesday, October 5, 2004 10:29 AM
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pirateshark9
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never have i even loved nathan so much as now. : )
Tuesday, October 5, 2004 10:35 AM
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nathansym
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Can it be?
A woman that agrees?
... or was that sarcasm?
Tuesday, October 5, 2004 6:03 PM
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burnsinat0r
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I know a few woman that agree with you. They are all hardcore christians though.
Tuesday, October 5, 2004 8:09 PM
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SweetCuteGirl
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Every morning you wake up there is a chance you'll die that day. Next time you get in your car you could die. Next time you eat something you could die. so on and so forth...
Tuesday, October 5, 2004 8:17 PM
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nathansym
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i dont understand
Tuesday, October 5, 2004 8:42 PM
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elm3r
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quote :
"So you're saying that if the man wants the child and the woman doesn't, tough fucking luck"
Yea thats pretty much it. |
Yeah. If a chick took that approach with me, and terminated my child without my consent, there would be hell to pay. As in, the unborn child wouldn't be the only dead one in this equation.
I understand that if the woman's life is danger because of a MEDICALLY DIAGNOSED CONDITION, then yes, abortion is the only feasible option. But to say "Oh, pregnancy in general is life threatening." is a true fallacy.
quote :
Like I said, its very easy for you to sit there and tell me its wrong when its a decision you will never have to make. |
What do you mean "its a decision you will never have to make"? Just because men do not carry the child doesn't mean that it's a decision that they will never have to make. I personally would NEVER be able to look at myself the same again if I was party to an abortion that was done for ANY OTHER REASON than a MEDICALLY DIAGNOSED CONDITION that could/would cause death to the mother. Men bear the toll of abortion more than women would think, or admit to. So, since women take the "Oh, men aren't really bothered by it", it makes their "It's my decision, and mine alone" argument more plausable. Atleast in their own heads.
quote :
Yes men help with the creation of life, I didnt say that. But men do not have to carry the fetus for nine months, or give birth to it. It is not endangering your life for me to have the child, so yes I think I get more say in it than you do. |
You know what I find ironic? The same women that say the above are the same ones whining about child support when their man (who has "less of a say in the child's life than the woman") takes off and doesn't pay up.
Tuesday, October 5, 2004 9:06 PM
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tampacheercoach
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"Yeah. If a chick took that approach with me, and terminated my child without my consent, there would be hell to pay. As in, the unborn child wouldn't be the only dead one in this equation."
Wow I mean theres just no response to something like that. Your threatening to kill someone because they go against your wishes? Wow.
"I understand that if the woman's life is danger because of a MEDICALLY DIAGNOSED CONDITION, then yes, abortion is the only feasible option. "Oh, pregnancy in general is life threatening." is a true fallacy"
My point is this, the pregnancy will affect only me phsycially. In every pregnancy there is a chance for complications that are possibly life threatening. To a woman who wants to have a child, those complications go unnoticed. But if I have no desire to have that child then that is not something I can just accept and ignore just because you tell me I should.
"Oh, pregnancy in general is life threatening." is a true fallacy"
I believe I said that pregnancy can be life threatening.
"What do you mean "its a decision you will never have to make"? Just because men do not carry the child doesn't mean that it's a decision that they will never have to make. I personally would NEVER be able to look at myself the same again if I was party to an abortion that was done for ANY OTHER REASON than a MEDICALLY DIAGNOSED CONDITION that could/would cause death to the mother. Men bear the toll of abortion more than women would think, or admit to. So, since women take the "Oh, men aren't really bothered by it", it makes their "It's my decision, and mine alone" argument more plausable. Atleast in their own heads. "
You cannot force a woman to carry a child that she doesnt want to carry, and vica versa. As much as you would like to believe you have equal say in it, most likely what it will come down to is what the woman decides is right for her, whether she tells you that or not. You can always tell her what you think she should do, but in the end her decision will most likely be more her decision than yours.
"You know what I find ironic? The same women that say the above are the same ones whining about child support when their man (who has "less of a say in the child's life than the woman") takes off and doesn't pay up. "
I absolutely do not "whine about child support" because I dont have any children. If I had children then maybe I would have an stronger opinion on it, but I dont have children so I dont have much of an opinion on child support in general.
[Edited by tampacheercoach on 10/5/2004 11:58:31 AM. Reason for edit: <0]
Tuesday, October 5, 2004 9:56 PM
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pirateshark9
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not sarcasm nathan, i totally agree with you. hence the: i heart nathan.
Tuesday, October 5, 2004 10:03 PM
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CK
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aside from everything everyones said. I'm gonna relate this to comas- There is no set generalized rule for that because every case is different; same here with abortions. I think that the government just really shouldn't have much say in something as sacred as reproductive rights. Same way I think they shouldn't have any kind of say in who marries who and so on.
Tuesday, October 5, 2004 11:04 PM
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rinpants
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<-- pro-choice
Tuesday, October 5, 2004 11:11 PM
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nathansym
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I wish there was somehing better than yes I could click on the hookup page for you April.
Tuesday, October 5, 2004 11:38 PM
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pirateshark9
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im touched.
Wednesday, October 6, 2004 12:10 AM
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elm3r
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quote :
"Yeah. If a chick took that approach with me, and terminated my child without my consent, there would be hell to pay. As in, the unborn child wouldn't be the only dead one in this equation."
Wow I mean theres just no response to something like that. Your threatening to kill someone because they go against your wishes? Wow. |
Going against my wishes? That's desensitising the scenario, isn't it? It's not like: if my significant other wanted to see a movie when I wanted to go to a club, and if she went to the movie anyways, that I'd cap her. That's "going against my wishes".
BUT: killing a family member of mine (aka: aborting a child that IS MINE AS WELL, WITHOUT MY CONSENT) is something I don't take very well.
quote :
My point is this, the pregnancy will affect only me phsycially. In every pregnancy there is a chance for complications that are possibly life threatening. To a woman who wants to have a child, those complications go unnoticed. But if I have no desire to have that child then that is not something I can just accept and ignore just because you tell me I should.
"Oh, pregnancy in general is life threatening." is a true fallacy"
I believe I said that pregnancy can be life threatening. |
And drinking water CAN BE life threatening. You gonna stop doing that? So is waking up. I mean shit, you could get killed by a falling meteor as soon as you walk out your door. You gonna stop doing that too, Howard Hughes?
quote :
You cannot force a woman to carry a child that she doesnt want to carry, and vica versa. As much as you would like to believe you have equal say in it, most likely what it will come down to is what the woman decides is right for her, whether she tells you that or not. You can always tell her what you think she should do, but in the end her decision will most likely be more her decision than yours. |
If the woman cannot give me a logical reason for terminating MY CHILD, and does it without my consent, there will be hell to pay. That's it.
quote :
"You know what I find ironic? The same women that say the above are the same ones whining about child support when their man (who has "less of a say in the child's life than the woman") takes off and doesn't pay up. "
I absolutely do not "whine about child support" because I dont have any children. If I had children then maybe I would have an stronger opinion on it, but I dont have children so I dont have much of an opinion on child support in general. |
Read my quote again. I said the same women, as in women who share that opinion (aka: not just you). Just pointing out a double-standard: women can say "it's my child, and I'll do with it as I please", but will then hunt down deadbeat fathers, saying that they are bad/horrible/etc for not supporting THEIR child.
[Edited by elm3r on 10/5/2004 2:38:34 PM. Reason for edit: 16 in the clip, and one in the hole...]
Wednesday, October 6, 2004 12:36 AM
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Justferfun
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Here's a question for the cheerleading coach:
If you decide to have the baby (since after all, it's 100% your choice) and the father wants you to abort it (which doesn't matter because his opinion matters 0%), should he have to pay child support for the child he never wanted? I mean, if the woman doesn't want the child, she can just flush it, a man can't make that choice, according to you.
Abortion is one thing, saying it is 100% the mother's choice and 0% the father's choice is another.
Wednesday, October 6, 2004 1:42 AM
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tampacheercoach
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If I decided to have a child against the wishes of the father then I personally would not expect him to pay child support. But that is just my personal opinion, others may disagree.
But like I said, I dont know exactly what I would do in that situation because I have never been in that situation.
"Abortion is one thing, saying it is 100% the mother's choice and 0% the father's choice is another."
Again that is completely your opinion, and mind differs. In reality it really is the mothers choice. Why, because you cant force a woman to have a child or to not have a child because it is her body.
[Edited by tampacheercoach on 10/5/2004 4:11:40 PM. Reason for edit: <0]
Wednesday, October 6, 2004 2:08 AM
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Justferfun
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You've also never been in the situation of abortion (correct me if I'm wrong there), but you seem to have a strong opinion on that.
[Edited by Justferfun on 10/5/2004 4:11:21 PM. Reason for edit: []
Wednesday, October 6, 2004 2:10 AM
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tampacheercoach
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How exactly do you know if I have been in that situation or not?
Personally I dont know what I would do if I were faced with a decision like that. Thats why I am pro-choice, because I would like to be able to make that choice myself. I know someone close to me who was faced with the decision and I learned from her that you never know one hundred percent what you will do in any given situation.
[Edited by tampacheercoach on 10/5/2004 4:19:31 PM. Reason for edit: <0]
Wednesday, October 6, 2004 2:12 AM
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Justferfun
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(correct me if I'm wrong there)*
[Edited by Justferfun on 10/5/2004 4:24:59 PM. Reason for edit: that was just too much...]
Wednesday, October 6, 2004 2:18 AM
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Lysander
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Ahhh, the neverending abortion debate. How about everyone just cool off and realize no one is right and it's all a matter of opinion?
Wednesday, October 6, 2004 2:21 AM
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Justferfun
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It stopped being a debate about abortion a long time ago, Brad. The argument shifted to wheither or not the father has any say his child's life. And if he has no say, should he have to pay?
[Edited by Justferfun on 10/5/2004 4:27:40 PM. Reason for edit: []
Wednesday, October 6, 2004 2:26 AM
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