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ragingheifer
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ew!
Monday, October 4, 2004 11:46 PM
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USFbootyGiRL
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I'm not against aboriton completely, but 24 weeks is way too late, and women should not be allowed to have abortions after 8-12 weeks of being pregnant.
Tuesday, October 5, 2004 12:14 AM
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nathansym
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Because that is when life begins?
Tuesday, October 5, 2004 12:15 AM
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sundoll-arwhore
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What is the difference between 8-12 weeks and 24? Abortion is going to happen no matter what. It will never stop happening. I think its more important to provide safe clinics where a woman could get an abortion and not risk her life as opposed to using a coat hanger that would kill her and the baby.
[Edited by sundoll-arwhore on 10/4/2004 2:21:20 PM. Reason for edit: .]
Tuesday, October 5, 2004 12:17 AM
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ragingheifer
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the difference between 8-12 weeks and 24 weeks is about 12-16 weeks
Tuesday, October 5, 2004 12:22 AM
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nathansym
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We should also provide places for heroine addicts to shoot up safely so they don't overdose.
I mean as long as we are killing children safely then it's fine.
[Edited by nathansym on 10/4/2004 2:26:06 PM. Reason for edit: .:.]
Tuesday, October 5, 2004 12:24 AM
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ragingheifer
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i disected a fetus in 11th grade AP bio...
oh yea...it was a pig
Tuesday, October 5, 2004 12:27 AM
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Osteor
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Fuck everyone and their propaganda pictures. This picture doesnt mean SHIT. How about YOU make the decisions for everyone else ok? God damn I hate fuckign religious, close minded, bible thumping, non-choice idiots. If someones not doing what you think is right you know what you should do? STAY OUT OF THEIR FUCKING BUSINESS. Theyre not asking for your approval, and theyre also not the ones showing pictures of dead emaciated babies.
Tuesday, October 5, 2004 12:28 AM
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sundoll-arwhore
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There are heroin clinics in the United States. ^Osteor-you probably don't give a shit, but you're cool.
[Edited by sundoll-arwhore on 10/4/2004 2:29:18 PM. Reason for edit: meh.]
Tuesday, October 5, 2004 12:28 AM
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USFbootyGiRL
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Look at what laws say about pronouncing someone legally dead....
brain waves and heartbeats don't develop until later in a pregnancy..thats why I said 8-12 weeks...
I'm not certain on all the timing and stuff though, so I'm not trying to start a debate...either way, everyone has their own opinions on abortion.
Tuesday, October 5, 2004 12:31 AM
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whatisusf
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abortions if done properly could help fight hunger in 3rd world countries. RECYCLE.
Tuesday, October 5, 2004 12:31 AM
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Osteor
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Yea I do care, thanks. Honestly man, if people want to do herion, let them fucking do heroin. Let them rot to death of their own free will, the fact of the matter is we really dont need those people in the world so why try and stop them from doing us a big favor? Abortion is not something you can stop, would you try and stop a woman from having a miscarriage? THE BABY IS ALIVE SO HIS LIFE IS ENDING. OH MY GOD!
Tuesday, October 5, 2004 12:33 AM
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nathansym
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we shouldnt try to help people ... gotcha
[Edited by nathansym on 10/4/2004 2:47:09 PM. Reason for edit: reread]
Tuesday, October 5, 2004 12:38 AM
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CK
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I agree with Osteor.
MY body, MY choice. and you can stay the fuck out of it.
I don't even know if I could ever have an abortion, but you better know that if the time ever comes for me to choose, I am going to make my own fuckin decision.
2:many scenarios
So. The mom knows ahead of time she has a high chance of dying during childbirth. I think she has the right to choose to abort it. What's more important, this person who already is out in the world with relations, or an unborn human?
So. The mom knows she can't possibly take care of the baby. Giving it up opens the chances of it being in a shitty foster home or with crappy adoptive parents. This shit happens, it's terrible but true. Or maybe she just keeps the child anyways, and it has a terrible life.
What's more important? quantity of life, or quality? The world is fuckin overpopulated people!
No ones saying use abortion as some kind of post-conception contraceptive, but give women their reproductive rights.
Tuesday, October 5, 2004 12:39 AM
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nathansym
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quote :
MY body, MY choice. and you can stay the fuck out of it. |
An unborn baby is a seperate human and is NOT your body.
quote :
What's more important, this person who already is out in the world with relations, or an unborn human? |
So you are comparing the value of two lives?
quote :
So. The mom knows she can't possibly take care of the baby. Giving it up opens the chances of it being in a shitty foster home or with crappy adoptive parents. This shit happens, it's terrible but true. Or maybe she just keeps the child anyways, and it has a terrible life. |
So we should gas the orphanages?
I mean, they are just gonna lead horrible lives. We should end it before they suffer more, right?
Side Note: My aunt is a foster mom. And a great one. Not all of the foster parents are like the horror stories you hear on the news. Not many foster parents get in the headlines for loving their foster kids.
[Edited by nathansym on 10/4/2004 2:48:39 PM. Reason for edit: .:.]
Tuesday, October 5, 2004 12:45 AM
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elm3r
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quote :
There are heroin clinics in the United States. |
Yes, but these clinics do NOT give out heroin and syringes for people to get fucked up. The clinics you refer to are called Methadone clinics. What is methadone, you say? http://www.usdoj.gov/ndic/pubs6/6096/
quote :
Fuck everyone and their propaganda pictures. This picture doesnt mean SHIT. How about YOU make the decisions for everyone else ok? God damn I hate fuckign religious, close minded, bible thumping, non-choice idiots. If someones not doing what you think is right you know what you should do? STAY OUT OF THEIR FUCKING BUSINESS. Theyre not asking for your approval |
* That picture doesn't mean SHIT? I bet you're one of those people that will show a picture of an Iraqi insurgent who was shot while trying to fire an RPG at Coalition troops, and start spouting some anti-war rhetoric. Just because you don't believe in the message the picture is trying to convey, that does not equate to "This picture doesnt mean SHIT."
* Who's being close-minded? You're saying that if we don't agree, to "STAY OUT OF THEIR FUCKING BUSINESS". No talking, no compromising, nothing. That's about as close-minded as it gets.
* Oh, so if I see someone stabbing a person on the street, I should "STAY OUT OF THEIR FUCKING BUSINESS"? Eventhough I believe that what they are doing is wrong, and is illegal? Fuck that.
* I am by NO MEANS a bible-thumper, religious zealot, or anything like that. I do, however, believe that an abortion at 24 weeks is severely wrong. I am a republican, but here's one of my liberal views: no abortions past the first trimester (which would be <= 12 weeks). (A staunch republican would say no abortions, period.)After that: sorry. But that's just IMHO, and my $0.02. Tax, tag, and title not included. See store for details. YMMV.
Wow, nathan and i actually can agree on something...
[Edited by elm3r on 10/4/2004 2:57:56 PM. Reason for edit: i'm stuck on band-aid, cause band-aid's stuck on me.]
Tuesday, October 5, 2004 12:52 AM
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HairyBearChaos
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uh, a fetus is a parasite.
parasite n.
Biology. An organism that grows, feeds, and is sheltered on or in a different organism while contributing nothing to the survival of its host.
who is to say when life begins? you can't tell me when life begins and you can't tell me what to do with MY body. parasite included.
Tuesday, October 5, 2004 12:57 AM
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burnsinat0r
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So when does life start, Nathan? The moment of conception? The sperm and egg?
And for the record, I am against late term abortion unless the mother is in danger of losing her life. Then it is her own choice whether or not she dies.
Before a month I see it as a moral choice that one should be left to make on their own. It should not be up to the government as to how someone decides their own morals.
Tuesday, October 5, 2004 12:57 AM
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nathansym
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Hairybair: so once a fetus (latin for offspring) is able to sustain life on its own then it is murder?
Burns: I believe life starts at conception.
Tuesday, October 5, 2004 1:04 AM
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HairyBearChaos
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nathan, shut up. you know my name.
i was doing more devil's advocate than anything else. you still can't tell me [women] what to do with my [our] body(ies) -- and that picture may have been taken out of context. what if the mother of that fetus was on the brink of death?
[Edited by HairyBearChaos on 10/4/2004 3:14:27 PM. Reason for edit: .spoo]
Tuesday, October 5, 2004 1:07 AM
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CK
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Regardless of whether or not an unborn human is alive or not if it is of my body and there are going to be complications, or other problems, I WANT the right to decide what is best for my sitaution. Not some politician.
I try not to compare human worth. Put yourself in this situation. You're a 5 yr old kid. Mommy's pregnant for the second time. The whole family is excited and celebrating. Dr announces some devestating news. Moms probably gonna die on the delivery room table. She can go through with it for the sake of an unborn human or choose to abort. How are you going to feel if abortions are illegal and your mom dies all because she didn't have the right to her body.
I didn't say anthing about gassing orphanages, and the thought has never crossed my mind bercause frankly, I think that's pretty terrible. But surely you can see how orphan life is not the best.
Glad to hear about your aunt. I don't want to be a foster mom but I hope to one day adopt 2 children. I know there are different stories than the horrible ones showcased in the news, because quite often there are stories of excellent shared too. Fostering and adopting are wonderful selfless things to do. But it can't be denied that there are some shitty foster and adoptive parents out there. With so many unwanted children out there and the overpopulation issue on this earth, I sometimes wonder when the day we are limited to the amount of kids born per family (hopefully) will be set in place. I tend to think of it in terms of sustainability.
I hope you don't think I'm all gung ho about killing off unborn children, because I'm not. I just think that women need to be granted their reproductive rights and the rights to their body.
side notes:
-for every prohibition you create you also create an underground- jello biafra...
-coat hanger abortions are not pretty things. I think its disgusting that people are trying to shut down abortion clinics.
-and to who ever said that bit about heroin junkies...yes, there are clinics that pass out clean needles so as not to spread other diseases.
Tuesday, October 5, 2004 1:08 AM
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nathansym
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First,
I only read the side notes.
other stuff too long ... read it later
As for the heroine comments ... I wasn't talking about handingout clean needles ...
I was talking about having a place where people could go and buy heroine and shoot up safely ... maybe that does exist.
If it does ... then I dont agree with that either.
Tuesday, October 5, 2004 1:13 AM
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ragingheifer
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nathan: i agree with your avatar
[Edited by raginghefer24 on 10/4/2004 3:24:58 PM. Reason for edit: :oP]
Tuesday, October 5, 2004 1:16 AM
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burnsinat0r
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quote :
we shouldnt try to help people ... gotcha |
We shouldn't try to FORCE help on people. Nor should we FORCE morals on people.
quote :
So we should gas the orphanages?
I mean, they are just gonna lead horrible lives. We should end it before they suffer more, right? |
Way to draw uneven parrallels.
quote :
* Who's being close-minded? You're saying that if we don't agree, to "STAY OUT OF THEIR FUCKING BUSINESS". No talking, no compromising, nothing. That's about as close-minded as it gets. |
Its called moral relativism. It's something this country was based off of when we came over here for our freedom of religion.
quote :
I do, however, believe that an abortion at 24 weeks is severely wrong. I am a republican, but here's one of my liberal views: no abortions past the first trimester (which would be <= 12 weeks). |
I can agree with that.
Tuesday, October 5, 2004 1:19 AM
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burnsinat0r
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quote :
Burns: I believe life starts at conception. |
And lots of other people believe otherwise. Who are you to say everyone has to follow your rules?
[Edited by burnsinat0r on 10/4/2004 3:23:19 PM. Reason for edit: edit]
Tuesday, October 5, 2004 1:21 AM
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nathansym
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When did I say that?
I love your type. As soon as anyone has a belief, they are trying to shove it down others throats and tell them what they should believe.
quote :
Way to draw uneven parrallels. |
They aren't ueven parrallels ... if WE (me and you) were discussing it then they would be because WE disagree on when life begins. But she never argued that it wasn't a living human being.
Therefore killing a 2 year old so they wouldn;t have to experience a crappy life would be the same as killing an onborn child.
Also, I think you missed the point of elm3rs statement on Oesters close minded hypocrisy
[Edited by nathansym on 10/4/2004 3:29:33 PM. Reason for edit: .:.]
Tuesday, October 5, 2004 1:25 AM
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timeconsumerx
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i dont get this picture... are you trying to tell me the one on the left is better off or the one on the right is better off? this is ineffective.
Tuesday, October 5, 2004 1:28 AM
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burnsinat0r
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Nathan, you are claiming that abortion is killing unborn children and it is wrong. And that ending a life is immoral and shouldn't be lega.\l. And then you claim that life starts at conception. So lgically, you jsut claimed that any abortion after conception is wrong and should be illegal. Therefore you are shoving your opinion down our throats.
MMy opinion is that others shouldn't shove their own opinions and morals down others throats. Hence my support of choice.
quote :
They aren't ueven parrallels ... if WE (me and you) were discussing it then they would be because WE disagree on when life begins. But she never argued that it wasn't a living human being.
Therefore killing a 2 year old so they wouldn;t have to experience a crappy life would be the same as killing an onborn child.
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You knwo why it's an uneven parallel? Because the 2 year old is a living child by everyones standards. Aborting an undeveloped fetus is entirely not the same. Of course if you want to bend logic and avoid that go ahead.
[Edited by burnsinat0r on 10/4/2004 3:32:23 PM. Reason for edit: .:.]
Tuesday, October 5, 2004 1:29 AM
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nathansym
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it's really for those that argue that unborn babies are not human beings that posses life
Tuesday, October 5, 2004 1:31 AM
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nathansym
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lol
So any person that has a belief that what others are doing is wrong and/or immoral is shoving it down their throat?
I should never speak my beliefs out loud?
read what I said joe ... I am not bending logic.
I believe that an unborn child is just as much a human as a kid in an orphanage and this was not a dispute between us (me and burninghour).
.:. no uneven parrallels
.:. no bend in logic
[Edited by nathansym on 10/4/2004 3:36:29 PM. Reason for edit: .:.]
Tuesday, October 5, 2004 1:34 AM
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CK
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p.s. if you read my second post you might understand my point a little better.
Tuesday, October 5, 2004 1:34 AM
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burnsinat0r
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If you believe it should be made illegal and enforced on everyone, then yes, Nathan.
Tuesday, October 5, 2004 1:35 AM
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nathansym
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If I believe cigarrettes should be illegal I am shoving my opinion down everyone's throat?
I forgot in a debate only the side with the opinion you believe was allowed to talk.
[Edited by nathansym on 10/4/2004 3:39:06 PM. Reason for edit: .:.]
Tuesday, October 5, 2004 1:38 AM
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timeconsumerx
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i'd rather have the dead one than the sorry excuse for blood and flesh on the left. thats torture.
Tuesday, October 5, 2004 1:38 AM
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anticsprite
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I was brought up and still believe if you're responsible enough to have sex...you're responsible enough to bear a child.
Tuesday, October 5, 2004 1:39 AM
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nathansym
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burn unit victims are pretty ugly too
and in a lot of pain
Tuesday, October 5, 2004 1:39 AM
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timeconsumerx
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pull the plug, baby
Tuesday, October 5, 2004 1:42 AM
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timeconsumerx
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ps that was the most invalid point EVER
Tuesday, October 5, 2004 1:42 AM
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nathansym
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ok here is my point.
the baby may be ugly right now but he/she will get better and continue to live life
just like a burn victim ...
Tuesday, October 5, 2004 1:44 AM
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burnsinat0r
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quote :
If I believe cigarrettes should be illegal I am shoving my opinion down everyone's throat?
I forgot in a debate only the side with the opinion you believe was allowed to talk. |
If you believe cigarrettes should be illegal in all cases then, yes. It is someones personal choice that they want to smoke. You saying you're not cool with that is shoving your opinion down their throat and especially if you enforce it with legislation.
On the other hand, if you say second hand smoke is a problem and you restrict smoking to designated areas than that is different. You are enforcing laws where people impose their moral choice on others (second hand smoke).
It is almost impossible to reach a verdict on when life starts. It is a matter of opinion of course. My opinion is that when the baby is able to survive outside of the mother it is considered alive. I also believe abortion is wrong after the first trimester. But some people see it differently. It is a moral choice and should be left up to a person.
A person that believe is an absolute has trouble with that. I understand that because I used to think like that. But telling a woman she can't have an abortion if she is dying is plain wrong.
Tuesday, October 5, 2004 1:45 AM
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burnsinat0r
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quote :
So. The mom knows she can't possibly take care of the baby. Giving it up opens the chances of it being in a shitty foster home or with crappy adoptive parents. This shit happens, it's terrible but true. Or maybe she just keeps the child anyways, and it has a terrible life.
What's more important? quantity of life, or quality? The world is fuckin overpopulated people!
|
That brings up another point. It isn't fair to say that a baby will be stuck in a foster home or whatever the situation might be and deem it unfit for life. The amount of people trying to adopt babies is amazing. My girlfriend was adopted at birth and she turned out just fine.
I do agree on the overpopulation thing. But it isn't a problem in America. Adopting kids from other countries is great...but most people don't do it.
Tuesday, October 5, 2004 1:50 AM
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nathansym
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Smoking in restaraunts wasnt always illegal.
It took someone standing up and saying "You know what, this is wrong" to get that as a bill which then passed into a law and then was enforced.
You really don't make any sense at all.
It tool people standing up and saying "slavery is immoral, wrong and should be made illegal" for it to be abolished.
Were they shoving their opinion down others throats?
I mean, they thought something was immoral that others did not and they wanted to make legislation to make slavery illegal!
THAT'S HORRIBLE!
You have no ground to stand on Joe.
Tuesday, October 5, 2004 1:53 AM
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ragingheifer
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can some one explain roe vs. wade to me? 
Tuesday, October 5, 2004 1:58 AM
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burnsinat0r
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Jesus fucking christ. Did you read my post nathan?
quote :
You are enforcing laws where people impose their moral choice on others (second hand smoke). |
[Edited by burnsinat0r on 10/4/2004 4:02:01 PM. Reason for edit: do we need laymens terms?]
Tuesday, October 5, 2004 1:59 AM
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nathansym
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quote :
If you believe cigarrettes should be illegal in all cases then, yes. It is someones personal choice that they want to smoke |
please refer to my slavery reference.
Some believed that slavery was wrong in ALL instances. Some believed that owning a slave was a personal choice.
All I am trying to say is that stating my belief that something is immoral is not shoving it down someone's throat.
quote :
You are enforcing laws where people impose their moral choice on others (second hand smoke). |
And this has happened .... so what's your point?
The people that made these laws are shoving it down other's throats?
hefer ... I could tell you the roe v wade story from my perspective but it would sound biased.
I will say that roe is now an active anti-abortionist and has stated publicy that she was pressured by the ACLU to continue her case and bring it to the supreme court.
[Edited by nathansym on 10/4/2004 4:03:09 PM. Reason for edit: .:.]
[Edited by nathansym on 10/4/2004 4:04:53 PM. Reason for edit: .:.]
Tuesday, October 5, 2004 2:01 AM
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burnsinat0r
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And the law isnt about the fact that they own slaves so much as the fact that the slaves are affected by it! Read the post.
quote :
All I am trying to say is that stating my belief that something is immoral is not shoving it down someone's throat. |
And im saying that suggesting it should be legislation is shoving it down people's throats.
[Edited by burnsinat0r on 10/4/2004 4:04:43 PM. Reason for edit: .]
Tuesday, October 5, 2004 2:03 AM
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ragingheifer
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nathan i know all about it...i'm just trying to be a diversion...and an idiot...dammit...it's not working 
Tuesday, October 5, 2004 2:05 AM
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nathansym
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Joe.
Here is what I am saying.
Let me lay it out clearly.
I believe that life begins at conception.
Therefore I believe that every abortions takes a human life and is a murder.
Therefore I believe that there have been millions of murders.
Of course I am going to speak out, voice my beliefs, try and convince others, try and have legislation introduced/passed, etc .. to stop these mass murders.
Just like people spoke out against slavery, just like people speak out against genocides in rwanda, the sudan, iraq, indonesia, etc ...
Tuesday, October 5, 2004 2:13 AM
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burnsinat0r
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quote :
And this has happened .... so what's your point?
The people that made these laws are shoving it down other's throats? |
I am a liberterian and I'm very much so a moral relativist. So yes. Imposing laws about someones personal choices is against my own morals. Telling a person they can't do something (whether it be consensual gay sex or marriage, or the use of drugs) when it harms no one but themselves is wrong.
Tuesday, October 5, 2004 2:17 AM
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AfroWanksta
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It would harm the fetus which is wrong
Tuesday, October 5, 2004 2:25 AM
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